Which feature would you like to see in 5.0?

Which feature would you like to see in 5.0?

  • New material system (shader tree)

    Votes: 27 54.0%
  • Particle/Instancing system

    Votes: 8 16.0%
  • Booleans with N-Gon support

    Votes: 5 10.0%
  • Area renderer

    Votes: 4 8.0%
  • Bevel tool

    Votes: 5 10.0%
  • Movie textures

    Votes: 1 2.0%

  • Total voters
    50
  • Poll closed .
Thanks for that info Martin. I think that's very compelling.

Here's a quick example of the kind of thing you can do (easily) with a shader tree (ignore the volume shadows ;-) ). I put this together with about an hour of messing around in Blender 2.46 RC1. (Presumably it will take a lot less time in c3d 5.x.)

I might add that Blender's volume shadows are quite poor (it's a newish feature, so I guess it will improve). I still have an old copy of 3D Studio Max R4 (seven years old) and its volume shadows are much better.

The way they've implemented SSS is really nice. You get a bunch of useful presets (I just picked "marble", and then reduced the scale by a factor of 10 since scale is important for SSS).
 

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Hi,
some more notes on the material system. Maybe that explains it a little bit better. New material system doesn't just mean mixing two existing materials. This feature covers also:

-build custom materials
-build reusable material libraries
-blurred reflections/refractions
-full alpha channel support (for icon rendering)
-shadow materials
-multi layer rendering
-bump map backing
-anisotropic materials
-SSS
-volume textures
-volumetric fog
-importance sampling of BRDFs
-prepared for displacement mapping
-coatings
-fresnel effect on metals
-and more

All these things are difficult to handle with the current almost 6 years old material system. But the new material system can handle all this stuff easily. Maybe not all in 5.0 but it will be prepared for all this stuff and more.


Bye,
Martin

Well, now I'm really glad I voted for the material system.:rolleyes:
 
Thanks for that info Martin. I think that's very compelling.

Here's a quick example of the kind of thing you can do (easily) with a shader tree (ignore the volume shadows ;-) ). I put this together with about an hour of messing around in Blender 2.46 RC1. (Presumably it will take a lot less time in c3d 5.x.)

Hmm, can you do it(easily) in Blender?
 
how would volumetric fog work? Would this be possible to work kind of like a volumetric lighting, for example if you would make a light saber or a infrared light from a gun or something?

What is anisotropic materials?

The Material system sounds really promising! Looking forward to get it!
 
If the new material system isn't an all or nothing deal, perhaps you could implement some of the cool material features now, such as SSS or layered renders, and save some for later? That way you'd both generate buzz about the cool new features now, and find time to work on the other things that people have mentioned as well. Then when you introduce the rest of the cool material features in a 5.5 upgrade or so you can generate even more buzz. ;)
 
perhaps you could implement some of the cool material features now
Then he basically has to do work which he's going to throw away later. It's not "all or nothing" so much as working efficiently vs. inefficiently.

Also the new shader system is the headline feature of 5.x so dropping it would not help with buzz.

In the current system the procedural marble doesn't do transparency or blurred reflection. Where's he going to plug in SSS? Into the standard "material"? If so you can't do marble with SSS. If he plugs it into marble, you can't do SSS plastic or leaves or flesh. The current material system comprises a flexible "material" with no procedural components, and a bunch of procedural components which aren't flexible. This is why SSS doesn't make sense in the current system. So Martin either builds a huge number of special case shaders which need to be tossed out, or he builds a new material system which gets it right the first time.

Note: the new material system is mainly of use to the archviz / industrial design types (even if they don't realize it). I'm not arguing my own case, which would be for improved animation tools.

how would volumetric fog work? Would this be possible to work kind of like a volumetric lighting, for example if you would make a light saber or a infrared light from a gun or something?
Volumetric lighting is done in a variety of ways, e.g. voxels or rendering z-buffers from the point of view of the light. The way Blender does it is by rendering a series of 2d slices of the (spot)light volume (you can see exactly how it works if you look closely). It's a kludge, but looks fine for animation (not so good for high quality stills, where having a really high rez z-buffer would probably work better).

Volumetric Materials are done by keeping track of how long a ray's path through a material is and coloring the "virtual photon" passing through accordingly. There are further wrinkles (such as projecting 3d noise into the volume to get "wisp" effects). This lets you do localized fog effects, clouds, etc. Self-shadowing volumetrics are another story... Haven't thought about how they're done but it's probably by using some kind of voxel or particle approach.

Martin might want to avoid doing volumetric materials until he can do self-shadowing because he prefers to do things once the right way rather than provide half-assed hacks ;-) (This is why c3d's renderer has fewer features but produces output comparable to much more expensive programs.) I don't have the link handy, but if you see what Martin has said in the past about how he wants to implement hair, it's very much along these lines -- do it right or not at all.

What is anisotropic materials?
Basically surfaces which have different reflective or transparency qualities based on the direction you look at them from (not just angle of incidence, which is fresnel effects, but direction, as with brushed metal).

Hmm, can you do it(easily) in Blender?
It's about as easy as anything else in Blender ;-) -- it took me about an hour to render the image I posted (including working out how to do everything). Blender's material system is really quite impressive (as far as I can tell it's actually not a full shader tree, you can just plug procedural or texture maps into any channel and it supports any number of UV and vertex color maps; but I could easily be wrong since Blender is kind of hard to grok).
 

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So Martin either builds a huge number of special case shaders which need to be tossed out, or he builds a new material system which gets it right the first time.
I wasn't talking about dropping the shader system and building lots of special shaders.

What I meant was that even after you've laid the groundwork with a new material architecture you would still have to implement the features mentioned within that new architecture. And then if there were some features that were decoupled from the rest and hard to implement, you could save them for later.

But now as I'm typing it, I realise how stupid it sounds. :) It's only by testing the architecture fully, and implementing those very hard features, that you're gonna know if the new architecture works or has to be changed. I guess we'll just have to wait for the animation improvements.
 
It just so happen to be that the order of importance for me is exactly how there listed, Nuff said-now bring'em all at the same time in one implementation or another for v5.0 in a limited capacity & grow more powerful for each future 5.x upgrade... That would really wet my appetite!

Thanks in advance Martin.

Carlton
Digital Graphics Specialist
 
It's about as easy as anything else in Blender ;-) -- it took me about an hour to render the image I posted (including working out how to do everything). Blender's material system is really quite impressive (as far as I can tell it's actually not a full shader tree, you can just plug procedural or texture maps into any channel and it supports any number of UV and vertex color maps; but I could easily be wrong since Blender is kind of hard to grok).

That's what I was afraid of. But hey, sweet render anyway!
 
A more stable program

I just started working with 4.5 and it just keeps on crashing, mainly trying to rincut on an extruded object amongst other things...I've attached the last crash report...also I noticed that the crashreports are now being send to Apple rather the to Martin?
 

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Well, as much as I've ben busting Martin's chops over the Area Render tool, the Materials system would have to be the best way forward for the program...

Followed by the Area Render Tool.
 
Well Willem made a really good argument for the area renderer. When working with Maya my workflow ground to a halt once it came to rendering, and as I could see that happening to cheetah, I made a vote for this.

its not something that I need right away, but it would be good to think of cheetah as a friendly renderer as well as a content creator. Not that it isnt, its just that you have to stop work if you're waiting on a render.

Now heres a question. If the area renderer was oneday implemented, would it also be available for the baking process? so we could test bake a small area? Now that would be cool, and is also something Maya doesnt have.

-2c.
AC
 
Well, the reason I made that argument was because I don't want Cheetah to follow the same route as what I see with Unity3D. Unity3D is an awesome product and I was really waiting on 2.0 to have all my little niggles addressed. And then none of them were.

What are my niggles? Working undo, grid snapping, and being able to edit properties on more than one object at a time. Did we get any of that in 2.0? No. What did we get instead? Fancy lighting effects, terrain, shaders, etc.

All sizzle, very little steak. A year later they're still giving the same song and dance about a renewed focus on the editor and blah blah. We'll see.

I would just like to see developers return to workflow related items rather than worrying about playing the one-up game in regards to pretty effects.

Are materials important? Hell yes, they are. But not as important, IMO, as workflow and productivity enhancements.

No offense intended towards Martin here, of course. Cheetah is awesome sauce and I slather it on my body at every opportunity.
 
Cheetah is awesome sauce and I slather it on my body at every opportunity.

I think we've just found the new company strapline...better even that 'Work hard, render fast, retire young"!!!

BTW, will the materials system have a visual, draggable node input / output interface, like LightWave 9 (inter alia) has?
 
Hi.

I think we have to correct some point of views here. We are talking about Cheetah3D, Cheetah3D as a 3D Tool for Artists and not just an Importer or Exporter!

The tool itself must be handy and easy to use and has to grow, than in the second step - it is a nice to have connections to other applications!

So we have to focus on features in it and not what can I do in combination with 10.000 other tools!

But anyway I didn't understand what kind of discussion is this - everyone knows what will be in the next versions and updates. If not, please see here:
http://www.cheetah3d.com/news.php?n=19

There are lots of competitors out there - so this features are a must have!
These are main changes and they have to be done.

So, then you will have a workflow which works fine - the only way to get this is if you can do most of it in one application without a break or im- and export!

best regrads
wal
 
I would just like to see developers return to workflow related items rather than worrying about playing the one-up game in regards to pretty effects.

Are materials important? Hell yes, they are. But not as important, IMO, as workflow and productivity enhancements.

The new material system doesn't just mean a new feature. It is actually no real new feature. It is an enhancement of an existing feature.
The possibility to create reusable material libraries for example is a workflow enhancement. So you define your favorite metal material once and reuse it again and again. Same for galss, plastic, mortar and so on. That is a real time saver.

Same with Booleans. That is not really a new feature but and enhancement. The possibility to use multiple (>2) objects in the Booleans definitively is a workflow enhancement for example.

The particle system is something completely new of course. But there should be at least one completely new feature in a major release.

So I think 5.0 will be a very well balanced between new features and enhanced existing features.

Bye,
Martin
 
But anyway I didn't understand what kind of discussion is this - everyone knows what will be in the next versions and updates. If not, please see here:
http://www.cheetah3d.com/news.php?n=19

But is is still interesting for me to know if I made a good selection.:wink:

There are lots of competitors out there - so this features are a must have!
These are main changes and they have to be done.

That's true. Even with FBX that can be a big problem and cost you lots of time.

Bye,
Martin
 
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