Organic modeling

hambonehoney

New member
Hi everyone,
I am transitioning to Cheetah from Maya where I am used to working with different sculpting tools.
I am hoping someone might now how the artist of this image (found in the cheetah 3D gallery) may have created the veins on the leaf surface?
What tools should I experiment with to create organic, uneven or deformed surfaces in a controlled manner?
In Maya there are sculpt tools, but I am not sure what the equivalent is in this software.
Also any tutorials on on organic modeling techniques in cheetah would be really appreciated.
Thanks!
 

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To be honest, my first hunch on how this came into Cheetah is this method: Find a plant in some modeler depository and click download ...

If you would have provided a link to the gallery post, maybe we could tell for sure what happened there.

For the rest of your questions:

Sculpting:

Cheetah has a very rudimentary sculpting function with the brush tool, which isn't that useful imho (but it produces a displacement map, not a ton of polys. "Real" sculpting would produce polys). I don't know Maya's sculpting tools (it certainly is no zbrush), but I'd wager a bet that you'd be happy with sculptris (if it is still available somewhere and if it does run on a newer macos) or zbrush core mini (that can be found on pixologic's website. Somewhere), both for free (the latter being a bit more restrained, especially on the exporting side because it allows only to export a "decimated" obj-file (loss of detail there)). There's meanwhile a ton of more or less dedicated sculpting apps around, even for the ipad, and as much as I hate to point it out, blender is reported to have a very decent sculpting toolset (probably better than Maya, because the latter I've never even seen mentioned).

The problem with sculpting is this: You create a helluva lot of polygons in no time, like millions. So the usual way to work with it is: create a high poly sculpt (you can do that from a low poly mesh which makes things easier later on), create the low poly mesh if you don't have it, let an app create a displacement map from the difference (i. e. bake the displacement map). So you don't have millions of polys to handle in the 3d app; they only get created while rendering the thing. The problem is, this can't be done in Cheetah at the moment. So you could retopologize your sculpt (and loose some detail) or indeed use Blender where this is possible (or some paid app that allows this).

You don't even need a sculpting app to get the effect: Just paint a displacement app in the photo editor of your choice (or use a photo), because displacement is nothing else then a simple grayscale bitmap (ideally, though, in exr-format because of the details. Or you do use a blurred 8bit-format like jpeg). If the result isn't to your liking (i. e. you see the pixels in your object), just make it editable and then use a subdivision modifier (that way you can get away with a low resolution bitmap and still have a smooth result, which is in the end rather high in polycount (to make displacement work you need anyway a lot of polys).

Leaves:

If you have a lot of plants, a leave is often just a poly with a map for transparency, normal map and maybe displacement. For the plant you show above, if you want it really detailed, you could create the outer form as a mesh and then put on the bump map, if it's really near, even a displacement map from a real photo.

"Organic modeling":

Now you have to imagine a guy sitting before his computer, typing away, looking puzzled at the same time, stopping typing and slowly scratching his beard.

Sculpting isn't modeling. It's sculpting.

What usually is referred to as "organic modeling" is simple subdivision modeling which is the same in Cheetah as in Maya, not much to learn there except finding ways to get the same result without some of the tools you may be accustomed to, all the bells and whistles that indeed can make your daily modeling life easier but can be seen as a way of cheating when you look at it from the simple "modeling knowledge standpoint". Cheetah's modeling toolset may be a bit basic but all what you really need is there and that's one of the reasons I do recommend it for beginners (you don't learn driving in a ferrari, for example). But if you know subd-modeling you should be able to use Cheetah's tools right from the start.

If you don't, then I'd recommend the tutorial section in this forum. When you're familiar with the tools you can work through some maya tutorials on youtube, because you know that already, and it's easier to translate into Cheetah. There are a few "software agnostic" videos around, mostly about topology, where they use the most basic tools their software has to offer (if it's a good tutorial) and do concentrate on the kind of geometry you have to create to get stuff like pinching minimized.

In the end, every good "organic" model is a mix of subdivision modeling and maps (bump, normal or displacement, often all of them), where you try to keep the polycount as low as possible with as much detail as you need (normal maps can be produced in photoshop for example but also in apps like quixel mixer or substance painter / alchemist).

"Organic modeling" vs. "Hard edge modeling"

In the end there is not that much of a difference to it (you'd use less holding edges in the former). It's actually just a matter of experience to do what you need and you can learn a lot about "organic modeling" with a tutorial about a car or something similar as long as it is about subd-modeling (subdivision modeling. This modifier makes the difference).
 
Hi!
This is extremely helpful. It's very generous of you to go into such thoughtful detail.
I am switching from Maya bc as determined as I am to incorporate 3D elements into my video work, I am technically challenged-- and self-teaching-- so a tricycle rather than even a Toyota is probably what will get me the furthest at this point.
I am definitely looking to do more than create 2D cards for leaves-- they are more like fleshy monster plants.
The sculpt tools in Maya are good! And its nice that you can do everything in one program-- but if I am working with Cheetah, I understand now that I also need to use a sculpting app.
Sculptris unfortunately does not seem compatible with Catalina, which is what I am running on. So I am thinking I will go with Mudbox which is much more affordable than Zbrush.
So if working with Cheetah and Mudbox-- I think I understand that I would want to first make a low poly mesh in Cheetah; then bring it into Mudbox to sculpt; when done sculpting in Mudbox I re-topologize and create a displacement map; then bring it back into Cheetah to build the rig and animate.
Thanks a bunch!
 
You might look at 3D Coat for your sculpting and map painting needs. Also very capable.


Bob
 
With sculpting apps I'm a bit out of my league (most of what I need can be done with Modo's multiresolution sculpting which I use more than zbrush), so I don't know much else from own experience. If I had known that you are willing to spend some money I'd also have mentioned mudbox and 3d coat, both I never used but have on my radar for many years (bob is certainly right there. It's definitely worth a look). If you are on a string budget you still might want to look into Blenders scupting, though.

Zbrush isn't only expensive, it's quite overwhelming and a lot of people don't really get into it or just use a subset of the available tools (like myself).

But do not underestimate "modeling" with displacement maps from photos (you can make them editable and end up with real geometry which you could further manipulate).

The retopolizing you often can skip because you start with a lowpoly (clean all-quad geo and you're probably set up) that can be used by the sculpting app to create the displacement map for. In Cheetah you do need a lot of polys to displace correctly (subdivision doesn't always work very well with the uv map); there is no micropoly displacement or "displacement as bump". Depending on the level of detail you want you're sometimes better off with a high poly mesh and further details in bump / normal map. So there is probably a change in your workflow, and it's worth to try out the different apps before you decide.

I wish you good luck and joy with your future projects. Maybe you can show us some of your monster plants in the near future :).
 
You might look at 3D Coat for your sculpting and map painting needs. Also very capable.


Bob
Yes it is! Also Retopo, UVing, and soon polygon modelling in the new version coming out soon.
— shift studio.
 
While talking about plants, take a look at plant factory or speedtree. I created six plants using plant factory about a year ago, and will be renting again soon for another project.
good luck!

— shift studio
 
I don't think, the OP is much interested in plant factory, but it's interesting anyway. I can't see on e-on how to rent or purchase plant factory without vue. Also I couldn't find out what the shortest period is.
 
I don't think, the OP is much interested in plant factory, but it's interesting anyway. I can't see on e-on how to rent or purchase plant factory without vue. Also I couldn't find out what the shortest period is.
Yah I just thought I’d throw it out there.

You can rent for $75usd for one month and that’s for both VUEand plantfactory. I think you can’t get just one unfortunately.

—shift studio.

edit: there is also the crippled ‘creator’ subscription for much less.
Here is a comparison >>
— shift studio.
 
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Thank you very much.

Yes, I have seen that, but didn't find that one month alone is possible (often subscription has a longer runtime). But even for 75 $ you can get a lot of trees elsewhere (and there are some for free).

Something like plant factory, though, really would be great.
 
Thank you very much.

Yes, I have seen that, but didn't find that one month alone is possible (often subscription has a longer runtime). But even for 75 $ you can get a lot of trees elsewhere (and there are some for free).

Something like plant factory, though, really would be great.
Yup you can find a lot of inexpensive and free plant models around.
Sometimes I’ve needed a plant that is the hero and not a prop. Also not all plants are available in suitable quality, if at all. (Weeds specifically come to mind)
In those cases PlantFactory fits the bill for me. 👍🏻

— shift studio.
 
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