Leaving Apple

Affinity:
I am aware of these apps and even recommend them to others. For myself, workflow related, I have to stay with Adobe (grumbling and mumbling sometimes) for a while.

"more, more mentality":
I understand you, but I don't fully agree. For example, there is no "upgrade tax" that's windows / linux only (while the changes in MacOS will make it difficult to use some older software). Is new hardware more expensive than it was years ago? No, in the contrary. It's actually cheaper as soon as you look away from Apple. Their prices don't have to do anything with what that hardware actually costs - it's what they can get.

And it isn't the graphic industry (directly) that's responsible for all those tech firms to produce faster and better processors, gpus etc. each year: It's the game industry and the gamers who want more immersion, photo-real quality that's sometimes downright creepy. As I said before: Without them we wouldn't have such tech at our hands because for 2d it's simply not really needed, 3d is a market too small to invest that much in development. For me it's simply this: With my actual hardware I can't produce what I want and - more important - to compete.

Hardware and software got cheaper, now with a tendency to get very expensive at the high end market. Which is ok with me. To be honest, I don't really care if a render takes 30 seconds or 10 minutes. I do care if that same render takes 2 hours, though. For a reasonable amount (see KurtF's example) we can get a reasonably professional rig, something with what small time potatoes like me still can compete.

@Radian:
Nope, it isn't a standalone renderer, it's actually quite integrated into blender, C4d and Modo, while a real standalone renderer would work with anything. It's not really developed anymore at the moment, not production ready, and I don't know if it ever will be. Too much "can't do".

It started years ago and was very promising (still is in a way) and the big advantage is simply this: It works with AMD cards and Nvidia. I do hope they will develop it much further, with the side-effect that it could be integrated into Cheetah.

But even if it was production ready and Blender only: I HATE Blender. I probably can tolerate it for special things that I need a few times a year tops (like fluid sim), but to work daily in it would make me want to change my plans to something not 3d related.

By the way, AMD denoising exists, but quality wise it's far behind Nvidia Optics, other Nvidia related denoisers (Maxwell doesn't use optics but something of their own nvidia only) and even Intel denoiser which sometimes gives better results than Nvidia Optics.

Another by the way: I belong to that minority who doesn't think it's that good an idea to outsource everything to the expensive GPUs, so, all in all, I prefer CPU rendering over GPU rendering. The actual development is going back from the overpriced gpus to something like Apple Silicone, meaning there simply will not be a GPU anymore in the near future.

For the moment Intel embree is a compromise. It's not as fast as optics, but it shows that cpu rendering is far from dead.

For the moment I'd prefer an nvidia card, the new 3070 roughly as fast as the 2080ti for a fraction of the cost (some 550 bucks there around), but the coming AMD gpus will be faster (which is outside of 3d of no interest for me); as I have to wait a bit for the availabilty of cpus, I've not fully decided what I will do. Certainly no high-end gpu.
Ok thanks for clarifying !
 
there is no "upgrade tax" that's windows / linux only...
In short parallel to the "long term Microsoft/
The advantage of a free OS starts to be eroded if you instantly have to put your hand in your pocket. Even support takes time as you have to post your request on a forum and wait for someone to come along and offer you a helping hand. The help is usually quite good and offered by knowledgeable people, usually giving their time away freely, but that still doesn’t help you if you’re working to the clock and you’ve promised someone that Linux is so much better than Windows. If you get a really obscure error message or particularly weird problem, you could be waiting for help for a long time. While it’s true that installing Linux has become quicker and easier over the years, the process is still far from perfect. Some severe problem areas still exist for example, WiFi adaptors, which is very hit and miss and if you happen to run into the tar pits, you can expect to be stuck there for a long time. Also, there are more basic things such as stability issues with peripheral drivers and upgraded or down graded internal hardware.
software upgrade gotcha tax" that I stated previously, there's a hidden cost of ownership that I was referring to in regards to that. That hidden cost is Time.

Speaking only from my personal experience, when I browse through the macOS sub-system folders I find its well organized and human readable so within minutes I have a good idea what its plausible capabilities and compatibilities are without ever launching a single app. Troubleshooting macOS simply takes less time (it even gives immediate access to a dictionary, speech, etc., via contextual menu for text selections, right out of the box) in comparison to my Windows PC and from what I've heard from a colleague whom's a strict user of Linux it doesn't get any easier to fix glitches when they occur because of the vast variety of software hardware combinations that further dilute the paths to speedy resolutions.
I can easily share a ton of horror stories regarding my mac usage from over the years because I love to experiment a lot but every one of them had a happy time saving ending because I was able to fix it myself or for co-workers without placing support phone calls (well except for that time I spilled a drink on my MBP keyboard and knew the Apple Care had already expired but I got lucky when the Apple Store had a recall on the screen and keyboard and they refurbished the entire Mac for $300 this all took 3 days to resolve) so I digress. Macs aren't perfect (neither is anything else man made) but they do retain a higher resell value that can offset the cost of your next replacement as well as longer tax depreciation write offs for business or sole proprietors.

I feel it's often misunderstood to paint Apple Macs with a broad brush for 3D limitations, in my case such limitations in 3D have yielded less complex workflows I would have never discovered but sure there's always room for innovation irregardless of which hardware is chosen.
Thanks to the push from the gaming industry we now have Apple Arcade which should translate to a deeper more intense focus on ARM'ed mac enhancements of 3D capabilities offered to Apple developers in the very near future.

I'm aware that I'm preaching to the choir by stating the obvious. This is a very deep topic @Hasdrubal reason's to switch (for Now) makes sense for his situation as he described because he appears to be very knowledgeable and I appreciate this discussion but my replies are just to serve as a heads up to forum browsers with similar circumstances or ambitions that the grass isn't always greener on the other side if you understand what I mean because Apple's grittier CG past may not be its best representation compared to the direction they apparently are headed in currently.
 
I don't have a problem with Apple's technology, where I have a problem is some of their design choices. Making it difficult for end users to upgrade, forcing people to pay outrageous prices from them, for components that are far cheaper from 3rd parties (any one remember Power Mac's? which Apple famously licensed to make mac clones, then bought the company and closed down!). With their new Silicone system on a chip custom processors the age of Hackintoshing comes to an end. Choices are limited with Apple's ecosystem. No optical drives for you, Apple has decided you don't need them, no Nvidia cards, you do not have a choice. Though Nvidia may have the last laugh here as they just bought A.M.D. Anyway, before anybody get's offended or defensive, please remember, it's just a tool. Back in the day you had to have a Silicon Graphics Workstation to do serious 3D, today people are doing work rivaling that early stuff on Tablets and Phones. Technology changes. It was Cheetah 3D that pulled me back into Macintosh land, and Davinci Resolve that pushed me into Linux - go Elementary O.S.! Now that I'm here I'll stay a while. I've found most of the software I need for Video, Computer Graphics, 3D, etc. Despite claims of Mac's being easier to use and saving time, well, Elementary has been quite the revelation. I will double down on my recommendation, and I hope that more developers create their software for that O.S.
 
I still don't quite agree with you, CpH. Neither do I fully disagree. You certainly have your points.

At the moment, though, Windows clearly is better suited for work with 3d because of three things: Software availability (I just read somewhere that allegedly even Linux has a bigger market share than MacOS right now), because the amount of potential users isn't worth the hassle you have to go through. No big market there. 2. Nvidia cards and gpu acclerated rendering, denoising etc. I think almost nobody here changed (or will change in the future) from Mac to Win or Linux. It's the 3rd one that's driving us away, Apple's forbidding prices.

For somebody in the U.S. it's bad but here in my country the prices are insane. I just looked today, and for an i9 Imac with 64 gigs of ram and a 2 tb ssd I'd have to shell out 4799 chf, which is 5263.62 us dollars. No other specials included, just that. For something that wouldn't fully meet my needs (it was certainly less when I had looked the last time, so I wrote 4500 before). PC-Hardware is more expensive here somewhere between the 0 and 20 % more, just for comparison. Now a MacPro with a 12-core cpu, 96 gigs of RAM and 2tb ssd would set me back 10'396.72 US $ at today's dollar rate (9479 in my currency). For something like a quarter I can get a new amd 16 core 3950x, a 3070 nvidia card, 2tb ssd (and a bunch of other things) with 64 gig memory, all in all a faster system (except the memory. there is no 64 gig option for the mac pro). And allegedly such a system eats less energy than the mac pro while there isn't even a point in comparing the two gpus (the coming amd ones are faster, though).

My only gripe with Windows 10 is that's very much spyware. I'm sure I'm tech savvy enough to plug most of it, but probably not all, so this is why I want the windows machine used for graphics only. Many years ago that was standard procedure for me, a 3d computer on which I could render away, another for other work, meaning, I could happily render and still work without a problem and I had a second system waiting if one fell out. Technically everybody seems to agree that windows 10 is a sound system, as was windows 7 (till they tried to force me to change to windows 10).

I really like MacOS and I would prefer to stay with Apple at this moment in time. Microsoft is bad. Apple is bad. The one wants me as merchandise, the other wants my total dependency and they are so greedy to the point where they lose money through it.

If I have fewer problems with my mac than I had with Windows over the years, but when I have one, it usually takes me longer to solve it (if possible). So in the end, still, there is that time advantage, all in all, but it's not that big. And Apple has the policy to make it difficult for users to repair something themselves while I have the replacement for a broken harddisk or whatever in tomorrow's mail for a pc. Apple support costs money, Windows support can cost you, too (there is a ton of firms that would give it), but I never needed it and if I don't know something I can find a solution in minutes in the net (for every macos related problem, though, you can find some forum discussions where the answer is, you don't need that or Apple would have provided it). So no, I don't see a tax here. Both have their advantages and disadvantages.

That I can get more for replaced hardware may be true, but I don't see that as a personal advantage. First, I usually use my hardware as long as possible in some capacity (maybe for backup purposes only, whatever). If I look at the prices others ask for old macs (often you could almost get a new one for it) I can't do that. I'd feel like a con-man, simply a no-go for me. So, in the end, I couldn't ask for more than I would for a pc (if I'd sell at all. I have had in the past a tendency to give away old hardware for free if it wasn't fried).

Then there is the software. Linux is the loser here, but a lot of stuff is windows only, so I usually not only have more choice but often I can save money here.

I'm no prophet. I can't tell you how the situation will be in a year or 2 years from now. How I see it, though, is a bit pessimistic. Apple drives away the power users, still hasn't very much success for gaming and therefore not that big a market for rather high end hardware, meaning, they will not really lower their prices for that segment. On the other hand, the competitors are working on similar solutions, they have to, and so Apple will not own that market. As long as they don't change their price policy, they will not get the big market share. They don't care because they make their money elsewhere.

Then I have some personal reason which makes it difficult for me to work on a mac in the future. I'm left-handed. Most lefties use their mouse with the right, some with standard settings the left, very few change the buttons (meaning no right handed person can simply work on my computer without changing that first). The apple mouse isn't a problem there, but for graphics I use a gamer mouse that needs a driver (for example in Modo, it's almost impossible to work with the magic mouse, in Cheetah it's reasonably ok). More accuracy in a gamer mouose, more accuracy in my left hand. Most mouse producers don't have actual software that will run on the coming MacOSes, because the market is almost non-existent. There are other periphery gadgets you can run into trouble on a mac.

So no matter how you turn it, pc is cheaper, even all those things included you call "taxes". The two related advantages for a mac are simply security and privacy (most people, sadly don't care for that).

Like Kurt, I do hope, though, that more firms port their apps to linux (ok, there are some distributions floating around that are spyware, too). Because, to be honest, at the moment Windows and Apple just suck the same, for slightly different reasons (as do many other firms non-computer related. They try to con you almost everywhere).
 
Hi Kurt,
I'm sorry to hear that but I can absolutely understand you. The level of greediness Apple achieved can't be defended anymore. If you compare a AMD Threadripper Pro workstation with a Mac Pro you can just shake your head. Apple offers midrange performance for an extreme premium price. So I will stay with my trashcan MacPro for as long as I can. That's how to kill the 3D market on the Mac. Thanks Apple.

Apples interest in the 3D market is pretty close to zero anyways. They told me that more than once so I have doubts that that situation will improve in the near future. Developing 3D software for the Mac is no fun anymore.

When I switched to the Mac more than twenty years ago I never thought that I would return but last year I purchased a Windows PC by myself. Just for my hobby but anyways.

Since Cheetah3D is so deeply integrated in macOS there will be probably never a port. I just can't handle that workload by myself. I'm already struggling with the OpenGL->Metal switch. So Cheetah3D is pretty much locked to the Mac platform forever. Too sad.

So back into my coding cave and continue the OpenGL->Metal switch.:(

Bye
Martin
Just so heartbreaking to hear.

You have created such an amazing tool Martin, it's a work of art really. Powerful, intuitive, efficient. That whole development period when you were beta testing Falcon (7.0) was so exciting to be a part of, thank you. So sad to hear that Apple has made development for 3D so difficult that it is no longer fun.

I've been a Mac user for nearly a quarter century; Mac OS 8, Photoshop 3, QUARK, when 64MB RAM and a 1GB hard drive was massive, backups to CD-R, phone dial-up. Even in the dark days before the iMac changed everything, Apple products had premium hardware. I've always preferred the Mac OS experience over Windows; but the last 5 years with Apple has put a strain on that preference, and their premium price for mid-range performance that cannot be upgraded has caused me to consider, are these my last Apple products when I need an upgrade?

I love the Cheetah experience. I think Falcon renders quite beautifully, even at low samples (I'm notorious for trying to get those samples as low as possible to get renders faster). I anticipate my hardware will be useful for a couple more years and I will continue to use Cheetah in my pipeline as I go forward.

I hope these development hurdles aren't too painful Martin.

R.
 
Just so heartbreaking to hear.

You have created such an amazing tool Martin, it's a work of art really. Powerful, intuitive, efficient. That whole development period when you were beta testing Falcon (7.0) was so exciting to be a part of, thank you. So sad to hear that Apple has made development for 3D so difficult that it is no longer fun.

I've been a Mac user for nearly a quarter century; Mac OS 8, Photoshop 3, QUARK, when 64MB RAM and a 1GB hard drive was massive, backups to CD-R, phone dial-up. Even in the dark days before the iMac changed everything, Apple products had premium hardware. I've always preferred the Mac OS experience over Windows; but the last 5 years with Apple has put a strain on that preference, and their premium price for mid-range performance that cannot be upgraded has caused me to consider, are these my last Apple products when I need an upgrade?

I love the Cheetah experience. I think Falcon renders quite beautifully, even at low samples (I'm notorious for trying to get those samples as low as possible to get renders faster). I anticipate my hardware will be useful for a couple more years and I will continue to use Cheetah in my pipeline as I go forward.

I hope these development hurdles aren't too painful Martin.

R.

Nice post Rene. I'm similar. I started using Mac Se/30's in the computer lab at University (using them very badly it has to be said). Then Mac Classics, then a Power Mac 6100/66 in my first job after uni. ArchiCAD 5, formz 2.9, Electric Image 2.7. They used to send the updates on floppy disks in the mail lol.

I hope Martin can sneak in SSS and volumetric lighting before the switch to Metal. I don't own any computers that run Catalina.
 
Hey Guys, some more positive expectations please! 😉

I had to go that way to Windoof three years ago, but always scanned the Mac world for a cheaper machine just to run Cheetah... hopeless regarding my budget.

This M1 MacMini brighten up my Future Plans, but it's only worth the price with a native Cheetah App working on it!

And what, when the first iPad will get a M1 Chip, and tablets will run the same Appstore?
New possibilities at the horizon.

Bye KurtF, I'm sure you'll read the forum time by time.
 
I see Wings 3D is still around. Free modeler. I keep watching Blender tutorial videos and it still looks complicated. The interface may be cleaned up, but it still seems it takes 5 clicks (or shortcuts) to do anything. If you do something like rigging, it seems you have to keep jumping in and out of "modes". Object mode, pose mode, etc. There's so many panels and icons. Still looks very confusing. And there's always a few times in their tutorials where the phrase, "Make sure you..." comes up before an instruction! I come from Cinema 3D and, like Cheetah, everything is done in the same "mode". And Blender's Z up axis makes no sense!

I have little projects in my head I'd like to dive into, but at my age, I'm not that interested in learning an entire new way of working (Blender). Anyway, wish we lowly hobbiers had more options. Not that I don;t like Cheetah, but my Mac is due for an upgrade and I'd hate to not be able to use it.

Bob
 
On the subject of Blender in the context of leaving Apple, AFAIK Blender have said they will NOT port to Metal, which means it might work on Apple Silicon for now.

Given that Apple has deprecated OpenGL (2018), it will probably only stick around for as long as Apple ships Intel based machines, after which it will be scrubbed from macOS completely.
 
Blender is among the open source projects Apple is working with directly to port to Apple Silicon (reported by WWDC2020). I've heard no report on Metal support, but that improves the odds of Blender continuing to work on new machines.
 
Blender is among the open source projects Apple is working with directly to port to Apple Silicon (reported by WWDC2020). I've heard no report on Metal support, but that improves the odds of Blender continuing to work on new machines.
I don't think that is true at all, and we have not heard a pip of it since after. They have said no Metal support.
 
Outside of WWDC, you'll never hear a peep from Apple until they have an announcement, and they tend to pressure groups who talk about collaborative efforts that are still in progress, so silence generally means very little. Whenever there's news, it dumps all at one time. That they've acknowledged it at all is the good thing, because it sets them up for later questions about it.
 
I use Linux everyday for work and, aside from gaming, it’s really overtaken Windows as a credible alternative to the Mac. Windows (I bought four gaming PCs for the family thanks to COVID) has, if anything, gone backwards in many ways, while the better Linux distributions are really pretty nice (but games and sound drivers remain a problem).
 
I use Linux everyday for work and, aside from gaming, it’s really overtaken Windows as a credible alternative to the Mac.
I wish software developers would recognize this (of all the software I use more or less daily, only Modo would run on Linux. (And I'm not interested in Gimp, Inkscape and so on).
 
I’m a programmer, so I realize this is true, but really it‘s pretty much true of Windows — the best software is either totally cross-platform or Mac-only. The Linux alternatives to Mac software (and there’s better stuff out there than GIMP, while Inkscape is much less alien on Linux) are bad, Windows again is no better.
 
If you mean with "totally cross-platform" that a software is available for mac, win and linux, I heartily disagree. Adobe, Affinity, my accounting software, a lot of office software in general, more specialized writing software and a ton of business software are at best available for windows and mac, often windows only. Not every little firm can afford SAP (if that's even known in the U.S.).

There are a lot of reasons not to like or even hate windows but software availability isn't one of them. Actually that's one of the very few reasons to use it (in my case the only one besides prices).
 
via Daring Fireball: An interesting article, with some serious insight as to how the M1 manages to be so much faster than intel chips, and how an Apple Silicon gets most of its speed by being tailor made for how apple software is written, not by sheer horsepower. (also suggesting how the M1 might be getting more done with less RAM)
 
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