How Rotate Eyes with Head Rotation

Jeanny

Active member
#1
I would like to be able to have the eyes move with just the head.
If I just place them inside the Head/Neck object they will fallow along
when I move the Head/Neck object to and fro and up and down

However . . .

If I want to rotate just the Head part of the Head/Neck and keep the Eyes in the same position of the Head . . .
the only way I know how to do this is Merge the Eyes with the Head

However . . .

If I want to Record just the Eyes Rotating after rotating just the Head . . . I can’t get that to work:confused:

Could someone please help me?

My Best Jeanny
 

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Jeanny

Active member
#3
Thanks Frank!
That was fast!
Here's some hugs of appreciation:
000
I've decided to start distributing a bunch of them . . .
I think everyone could use them.

My Best
Jeanny
 

Helmut

Active member
#5
1 A simple object hierarchy (as mentioned by FB / which you have, anyway) is all you need. Once you merge objects the previously individual parts can no longer be controlled separately.
* Of course, you will have to keyframe (rotation only) the eyes separately to the head, either directly or via the T modifiers which you stick right under the 2nd level of the hierarchy.

2 If memory serves me right:
* There should an old post by Frank where he uses the target tag for eyes focusing on a (presumable invisible) spline tracked taget. This may be useful trick for your model.
* Frank will know what it was called, I cannot find it.
 

Helmut

Active member
#7
* Thank you, Frank. That is indeed the sample I was remembering.
* @ Jeanny: You can still use this target tag to orient the eyes towards some object which has positional parameters associated with it, be it the camera or some (in)visible dummy object which you can keyframe or spline track. You may have to fiddle the axes of the eyes (using a transform modifier) as the target tag uses the Z-axis for directional control.
:p Hi from Vienna
 

Jeanny

Active member
#8
@Frank:
Thanks for the additional information
You can attache the eyes to the corresponding joints in the hierarchy or simply as child objects to the head.
:unsure:Do you mean I could do this if I added a skeleton?
What is wrong with your "Head Neck Group"?
I think some of it is busted . . . Oh ! you mean my project .Ha Ha:giggle:

Oops! I should have explained what I did and posted a picture to help explain it.
In Polygon mode I selected the Head and the merged eyes without selecting the neck ; then rotated that selection.
Please see attachment.

@Helmut:
I’m glad you posted this.
l’ll see if I can make it work.

@ Frank & Helmut:
:unsure:In either case do I have to merge the Eyes with the head in order for the Eyes to retain their position in the Head when I rotate the head up or down?
It seems that the eyes won't retain their position in the head if I don't merge them with the Head;
but If I merge them I can't rotate the eyes without them distorting.

I’m going to try to work with both methods and see which method seem to work better for my particular project.

Thanks again:)

Granny Hugs: 0 0 0
My Best
Jeanny
 

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#9
If I want to rotate just the Head part of the Head/Neck and keep the Eyes in the same position of the Head . . .
the only way I know how to do this is Merge the Eyes with the Head
However . . .
If I want to Record just the Eyes Rotating after rotating just the Head . . . I can’t get that to work:confused:
If I understand your goal...
Using a target tag, a null invisible object, and one or two transform modifiers should be able to get you to your goal.
1. You can isolate eye movements using its own transform tag (or 2 of them) and record that transform modifier
2. Add an object that is small, visible, but not render ; make this obj follow the movement of the head
(eg for instance, in the same location as the tip of the nose)
3. Make the eye obj position targeted to the null obj, therefore the eye position always follows the 'nose'
-- and the transform modifier (or 2) refine the eye movements separately

If you want an in-depth set of techniques that may help you in certain situations,
you could refer to my post and 45 minute video showing eye movements, recording them, and saving the animations and gestures in a library. Using the f-curves, it is easy to refine the exact movements and timing.

Of course, you may just want a simple solution rather than making this task a research project
I hope this is helpful.
 

uncle808us

Active member
#10
"1 A simple object hierarchy (as mentioned by FB / which you have, anyway) is all you need. Once you merge objects the previously individual parts can no longer be controlled separately."
You can merge and rotate individual objects.Unless I missed something...
Mreged.jpg
 
#11
When it' s for animation you can just keyframe points and you will run into the same issue you'll have when rotating objects via morph-tag: points will take the shortest/straight way from A to B.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with a hierarchy set-up in this case.

Cheers
Frank
 

Helmut

Active member
#12
* As already stated: Do not merge as you cannot control the previously independent objects.
* For rotating eyes: Stick to your existing hierarchy:

* parent: head
* child 1: eye left
* child 2: eye right

* select & rotate / keyframe eye left
* select & rotate / keyframe eye right
* Do not select both eyes to animate, as any rotation will be run from the "centre of gravity" of the two objects.
* If you move / rotate the parental object , ie the head, these transformations are inherited by the child objects.
* This is the practical purpose off the hierarchical structure.
* If you move / rotate a single child object, ie an eye, this edit will just modify the selected object in the hierarchy. Neither the other eye nor the head (the parental object) will be affected.
* This is really all that is required :whistle:
 

Jeanny

Active member
#14
Thanks JimAult, Uncle808us, Frank and Helmut!

I just was unable to get to the Forum today until now and wanted to acknowledge your kind helpful contributions.
I need a little time to study your tips and formulate comments correctly.
I don't think I'm expressing the main Problem I'm having.

I have created an animal - A lamb to be precise:

1) If I put the Eyes into the Lamb object and move them to the area I desire them to stay
they will stay there If I rotate the entire Lamb as one whole object with it's pivot point controlling the entire object.

2) If I just rotate the Lamb's head ( as in only rotating the Head polygons) - unless I merge the eyes with the Head the eyes remain in a global position - thus the head moves leaving the eyes behind out of the Head.

As Frank mentioned: once I merge the eyes with the Head - the eyes will distort when I attempt to rotate them.
When it' s for animation you can just keyframe points and you will run into the same issue you'll have when rotating objects via morph-tag: points will take the shortest/straight way from A to B.
@ Helmut: Your example looks great! - but -if you add a neck to the box and try to rotate just the head (and not the neck) at the point the head reaches the neck the head will rotate and leave the eyes behind unless you merge the eyes with the head . . . and around and around we go - the eyes will distort.

Thanks Helmut for posting your.jas file! . . . besides being a help for my dilemma you helped me find a feature I've been sorely missing for some time now: the Object Display type: Isolines. I didn't realize it is now located in the Object Menu.

It's been quite a while since I've tried animating with Bones. I'm just going over ZooHead's, Podperson's and Andrew Heyworth's tuts on Bone rigging.

I'm hoping I can bend the neck (thus rotating the head), have the eyes follow the head around and keep their position in the head where they need to be.

I Hope I'm not Baa-aa-ing in the wrong pasture.

Stop me please if I'll be waisting my time.

Somehow I need to articulate my needs better.

@ JimAult:
I've viewed hour tut some time ago; . . . It's fabulous!
I've just now skimmed over your help . . . looks like it will be a lot of help.
I'm going to finish working with bones to hopefully get the basic eye/head animation going right - then
I will work on animating the eye animation.

@ Uncle808us: Thanks for your clarifying input.

@ Frank: Thanks again for your information - it's helping me to keep from making the same mistake over and over as I manytimes do.

@ All:
Your information is greatly appreciated and it will come in useful in one way or another now and in future projects.

Sorry for confusing you.:eek::oops::rolleyes:o_O:unsure::confused:

Talk to you later

Granny Hugs: 0 0 0 0 0 0 0:giggle:
My Best
Jeanny
 
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#15
2) If I just rotate the Lamb's head ( as in only rotating the Head polygons) - unless I merge the eyes with the Head the eyes remain in a global position - thus the head moves leaving the eyes behind out of the Head.
This is because you´re transforming/working in component-mode (by selecting points/polys/edges) and no longer in object mode. If you want to pose a character you´re definitely in the need of rigging (adding a joint hierarchy to your character) - once you´re done with modelling+texturing of course.

Cheers
Frank
 

Jeanny

Active member
#16
Yay! Thanks Frank!
That will solve the main problem.
I almost have the lamb complete . . . it needs just a few more tweaks.
I needed to test the eye animation first because the eyes and sockets effect the mouth placement
and it's animation.

Granny Hugs 0 0 0
My Best
Jeanny
 

Helmut

Active member
#17
* Maybe trivial (and, presumable, already in the start up prefs of C3D):
Screenshot 2018-11-09 at 16.15.01.png


:unsure: Well, probably not so trivial. I have had no idea what "Toggle Mode" was until I set a hotkey to find out what it does :sick::eek::mad:
 

Helmut

Active member
#19
* @ Jeanny: More trivial stuff:
* I also stuck the modal buttons into the middle of the header bar so I can´t miss it if I forgot to reset the mode.

Screenshot 2018-11-09 at 16.24.09.png


* @ Frank: I guess this is a typical example of minor differences in neuronal wiring. Mine is an older postwar model which has not been updated in 2.5 generations of cerebral hardware progress.
 

Jeanny

Active member
#20
Well, probably not so trivial. I have had no idea what "Toggle Mode" was until I set a hotkey to find out what it does
Still not sure? This is the Nr 1 hotkey I use the most - zapping through the component modes - aside the one for the transform-tool.
Um-mm-m . . . I searched Toggle Mode in Cheetah 3D Help and I'm not coming up with anything.
I know there is Toggle crease and Toggle Seam but . . .

I'm thinking Toggle Mode might indicate that one can switch between Modes . . .

Oh! Thanks! I just set it up! (y)

My searching around the user interface brought my attention to Auto Mode for the Transform Tool.
I tried using it . . . Pretty Cool! :cool:
There seems to be a little :alien: that runs around the Modes and switches them for a user.

Is there any down side to using these Magnificent tools?

Granny Hugs 0 0 0
My Best Wishes to both of you
Jeanny
 
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