WWDC 2018: Deprecation of OpenGL

#22
Maybe you can use an Abstraction Layer instead of full switch from OpenGL to Metal? That should support older Mac versions and computers.

OpenGL Alternatives (video)
I've watched that video yesterday after youtube recommended it too me. Looks like google knows way too much about me.:confused:

But nevertheless thanks for the link. Unluckily non of the options would help me too much. They are more targeted toward game engines.

But I'm thinking about writing my own Abstraction Layer as an intermediate solution.
 
#23
Hi Martin

If it was just me, I'd say, go metal. The reason is, I know such things from myself, it's in the end inevitable and as long as you have not done it it weighs like a big stone on your chest.

But I really like the way you look out for the users of older machines. That you don't just dismiss them (as I have seen other companies doing it) speaks a lot for you. So thanks for that (even if it wouldn't hurt me at all in this case).

I don't know anything about metal but is it possible to have two versions of cheetah v7, one with the older code and one with metal?
 
#24
I'm sure the backend of the GPU drivers are pretty similar for every platform and are delivered by the hardware vendors. But for some reason OpenGL on the Mac was often considerably slower than on Windows. And often many versions behind. In my eyes that was mainly Apples fault.
The primary reason for the performance difference is that Apple has always run with double buffered output in order to compose the desktop at 60 fps, while for Windows you have single buffered output and could run the screen at whatever fps the application managed to provide.

The many versions behind is somewhat correct and has become more correct after Apple introduced Metal. The biggest culprit has been that Apple has not always implemented every function and extension of a given OpenGL version, and this has led to frustration and work-arounds when porting code to macOS.
 
#26
Could somebody please clarify ?

Metal or Metal 2 requires El Capitan OS X 10.11, and a Mac manufactured in 2012 or later. I have a Mac pro 3.1 from 2008, which can run El Capitan, but is too old for Metal. Does this mean that I can run a Metal compliant Cheetah 3D on this machine, but without the benefits of Metal, or that the Metal Cheetah won't run at all ?

Upgrading my Mac OS is no problem. Upgrading my hardware / computer is another matter entirely.

Thank you.
 
#27
Could somebody please clarify ?

Metal or Metal 2 requires El Capitan OS X 10.11, and a Mac manufactured in 2012 or later. I have a Mac pro 3.1 from 2008, which can run El Capitan, but is too old for Metal. Does this mean that I can run a Metal compliant Cheetah 3D on this machine, but without the benefits of Metal, or that the Metal Cheetah won't run at all ?

Upgrading my Mac OS is no problem. Upgrading my hardware / computer is another matter entirely.

Thank you.
Metal 2 requires macOS 10.14, most of old Mac machines cannot upgrade to it:confused: .
MacBook, early 2015 or newer
MacBook Air, mid 2012 or newer
Mac Mini, late 2012 or newer
MacBook Pro, mid 2012 or newer
iMac, late 2012 or newer
iMac Pro, 2017
Mac Pro, late 2013, and mid 2010 an mid 2012 where equipped with Metal-capable GPU
 
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#28
Metal 2 requires macOS 10.14, most of old Mac machines cannot upgrade to it:confused: .
MacBook, early 2015 or newer
MacBook Air, mid 2012 or newer
Mac Mini, late 2012 or newer
MacBook Pro, mid 2012 or newer
iMac, late 2012 or newer
iMac Pro, 2017
Mac Pro, late 2013, and mid 2010 an mid 2012 where equipped with Metal-capable GPU
Thanks for that. I can't find a single page on the internet that states directly what the Metal 2 system requirements are. If what you say is true, than that means several thousand dollars upgrade to my hardware to run Metal 2 programs.

:frown: :mad: :cry: :evil:
 
#29
Metal, as well as Open GL and Open CL, only affect Cheetah 3D's ability to display geometry and textures. Faster performance means the ability to move smoothly even in scenes with huge amounts of polygons and multiple, large size texture maps.


Rendering however, still relies on the CPU. Unless Martin makes some radical changes to how Falcon works.
 
#30
Could somebody please clarify ?

Metal or Metal 2 requires El Capitan OS X 10.11, and a Mac manufactured in 2012 or later. I have a Mac pro 3.1 from 2008, which can run El Capitan, but is too old for Metal. Does this mean that I can run a Metal compliant Cheetah 3D on this machine, but without the benefits of Metal, or that the Metal Cheetah won't run at all ?

Upgrading my Mac OS is no problem. Upgrading my hardware / computer is another matter entirely.

Thank you.
I have a MacPro 3,1 also and have upgraded and modded it to run 10.13.
There is a patcher program that will let you download & install High Sierra.

Here is what I did:
-Get the patcher from here and follow the install instructions:
http://dosdude1.com/highsierra/

-Buy a Nvidia Ti750 video card.
They can still be purchased / Run Silent / VERY Low power so No extra power cable req.
You will not get a "modern" ATI card working with this setup
It's inexpensive and 6x faster than the 8800GT in the Mac.
IT SUPPORTS METAL (and will support Metal 2)
KEEP your ORIGINAL Video card installed!!! Needed to see boot process if you have Mac problems.
The Ti750 will not be intended for a Mac but it WILL work (won't show boot process and only PCIe 1 transfer speeds)
-I usually see a major OS upgrade as an opportunity to get a new hard drive if I don't have a spare handy. It's WAY easier to do a fresh install.
-After it's installed just use Migration Assistant to move your data/user account(s) to the new drive
-Get the "web drivers" for the Nvidia graphics card.

My system is running great but know that you can forget about doing ANY OS updates, even point releases, from the App store.

Jason
 
#31
The primary reason for the performance difference is that Apple has always run with double buffered output in order to compose the desktop at 60 fps, while for Windows you have single buffered output and could run the screen at whatever fps the application managed to provide.
From where do you have this information? I would be a little bit surprised if that explains the full performance delta. Especially for fullscreen games.
 
#33
From where do you have this information? I would be a little bit surprised if that explains the full performance delta. Especially for fullscreen games.
Even fullscreen games have never been allowed to drive the screen directly. Only as of last year was the Metal VR driver allowed to access the screen directly.

Double buffering does not account for all the performance difference, but some.
 
#34
I have a MacPro 3,1 also and have upgraded and modded it to run 10.13.
There is a patcher program that will let you download & install High Sierra.

Here is what I did:
-Get the patcher from here and follow the install instructions:
http://dosdude1.com/highsierra/

-Buy a Nvidia Ti750 video card.
They can still be purchased / Run Silent / VERY Low power so No extra power cable req.
You will not get a "modern" ATI card working with this setup
It's inexpensive and 6x faster than the 8800GT in the Mac.
IT SUPPORTS METAL (and will support Metal 2)
KEEP your ORIGINAL Video card installed!!! Needed to see boot process if you have Mac problems.
The Ti750 will not be intended for a Mac but it WILL work (won't show boot process and only PCIe 1 transfer speeds)
-I usually see a major OS upgrade as an opportunity to get a new hard drive if I don't have a spare handy. It's WAY easier to do a fresh install.
-After it's installed just use Migration Assistant to move your data/user account(s) to the new drive
-Get the "web drivers" for the Nvidia graphics card.

My system is running great but know that you can forget about doing ANY OS updates, even point releases, from the App store.

Jason
Hi Jason. Thanks for that. Appreciate your time in posting. I did not know about this.

I'm not really a fan of hacks, and there are some limitations to this method as you've posted. I also note from the developer's website that my wifi card is one of those not supported. But I accept that beggars can't be choosers, and I may end up being forced to go down this route, depending on the solutions / timeframe coming from Apple and the 3D developers.

Thanks again.
 
#35
I've spent the last two weeks studying the OpenGL -> Metal transition. I'm having now a pretty good idea what I have to do and I've already started with some preparational work. Although I still have a lot todo.:smile:
 
#36
No need to hurry Martin, September is far away.
I've downloaded and tested Mojave public beta. Cheetah3D 7.2.1 works just fine.
I was more worried about my 32-bit apps, only Sculptris had crashing issues.
Must say I'm kind of disappointed with overall impressions on Mojave, especially with the system wide dark mode.
 

podperson

Active member
#37
September is far away AND OpenGL isn't disappearing for at least until the OS after Mojave.

I'm guessing it will be something like the transition to 64-bit, so:

macOS v10.x) Apple announces support for 64-bit apps.
macOS v10.x + 1) Apple deprecates 32-bit apps.
macOS v10.x + 2) Apple starts warning users when they launch 32-bit apps.
macOS v10.x + 3) Apple disables 32-bit apps.

If OpenGL -> Metal follows this then we're at stage 1, Mojave is stage 2, so expect two full OS upgrade cycles (beyond Mojave) before OpenGL is removed from the OS.
 
#38
Just re-reading this thread. One thing wasn’t ever really answered. KurtF, and Somian from this thread https://www.cheetah3d.com/forum/index.php?threads/12929/#post-114836 say C3D written for metal won’t allow for fast(real-time) renders, because Falcon is written for CPU. Miso believes, as I also believe(d), that it’s a short step to get fast renders once C3D is using written to take advantage of GPU.
@Martin, can you weigh in here?
Or anyone who is more informed than I on this kind of thing - what are your thoughts?

One other thing - I am very interested in SSS, volumetrics and displacement at render, but I’m even more interested in fast rendering (like, way faster). Just my 2 cents.
Thanks, shift studio.
 
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#39
IMOH ever since its replacement of QuickDraw3D, OpenGL/CL has had one foot in the grave on macOS. Apple has been under immense pressure for decades to turnover macs with out of box capabilities that can crush its windows counter parts. Their ARM development has been a rumored top secret since the switch from PowerPC to Intel. Industry professionals across all disciplines have questioned Apple's hardware cost in comparison to their competitors hardware cost and Apple's rebuttal was that their cost yields better performance per watt is more efficient than their competitors offerings with similar hardware. It all was bound to come to a head sooner than later at Apple to actually prove once and for all that their performance per watt methodology is a better purchase over their competitors. I believe they've already accomplished that goal with all of their iOS device hardware but has always fallen short in respect to macOS hardware by comparison. Now it's all come to light in the public eye and they're facing a do or die crunch for best in class mac tech upon every new hardware release, somethings gotta give in order for them to keep pace with demanding consumers and professionals. They've been in a tug of war over supplier parts with Qualcomm, Intel, Samsung and several others to the point of skipping new mac shipment dates to avoid major delays. Apple's obsession with thin macs has back fired almost to the point of total embarrassment (but darn these macs look good). I believe the writing is on the wall and it is inevitable that they make the move to utilizing their own ARMs in near future macs because its the only way to solve all the issues currently experienced like hot thermals, unpredictable battery life, irregular new mac hardware release dates, deprecated OGL/OCL, etc.
In regards to Cheetah3D, it appears to be at an advantage do to its size and dedicated developer. My prediction is Cheetah3d will rein supreme as one of the first to be full Metal compatible. The often neglected and over bloated competitors will need years to complete full Metal compatibility unless they've already been working on the transition. As for the MAS situation, perhaps Martin could just submit a Cheetah3D installer app instead, that would yield the best of both worlds I guess.
 

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#40
IMOH ever since its replacement of QuickDraw3D, OpenGL/CL has had one foot in the grave on macOS. Apple has been under immense pressure for decades to turnover macs with out of box capabilities that can crush its windows counter parts. Their ARM development has been a rumored top secret since the switch from PowerPC to Intel. Industry professionals across all disciplines have questioned Apple's hardware cost in comparison to their competitors hardware cost and Apple's rebuttal was that their cost yields better performance per watt is more efficient than their competitors offerings with similar hardware. It all was bound to come to a head sooner than later at Apple to actually prove once and for all that their performance per watt methodology is a better purchase over their competitors. I believe they've already accomplished that goal with all of their iOS device hardware but has always fallen short in respect to macOS hardware by comparison. Now it's all come to light in the public eye and they're facing a do or die crunch for best in class mac tech upon every new hardware release, somethings gotta give in order for them to keep pace with demanding consumers and professionals. They've been in a tug of war over supplier parts with Qualcomm, Intel, Samsung and several others to the point of skipping new mac shipment dates to avoid major delays. Apple's obsession with thin macs has back fired almost to the point of total embarrassment (but darn these macs look good). I believe the writing is on the wall and it is inevitable that they make the move to utilizing their own ARMs in near future macs because its the only way to solve all the issues currently experienced like hot thermals, unpredictable battery life, irregular new mac hardware release dates, deprecated OGL/OCL, etc.
In regards to Cheetah3D, it appears to be at an advantage do to its size and dedicated developer. My prediction is Cheetah3d will rein supreme as one of the first to be full Metal compatible. The often neglected and over bloated competitors will need years to complete full Metal compatibility unless they've already been working on the transition. As for the MAS situation, perhaps Martin could just submit a Cheetah3D installer app instead, that would yield the best of both worlds I guess.
Apple to dump Intel CPUs from Macs for Arm - Rumor update!
Predicted between 2020 - 2021.
Another Update: https://apple.news/AVumcTPOzTk2KsVuU19SeNg
 
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