Stole the words right out of my mouth. Though I prefer MAS, all I want to know is when we'll get v7, what the new stuff is and how I can upgrade from v6/MAS to v7/direct. Cant wait to see it.
Cheetah3D 7 - Free Upgrade Promo - Mac App Store
- Thread starter Martin
- Start date
This is because:
Which is what has been animating a lot of the recent discussion. In sum, the MAS is designed to be good for users — for developers it's another story.
As I see it, it basically goes like this for developers:
Sell through App Store:
Cons
- upgrade system
- no free trial system
- pay Apple 30%
- cannot undercut the MAS price
- unpredictable approval process
- stuck with Apple's licensing model (sell one copy to an account which can use your software on several computers)
Pros
- poor discoverability (basically make your own website and link to the App Store because unless you win the Apple recommendation lottery no-one will find your app there organically) — but this is better than alternatives!
- Apple handles copy protection for you
- Automatic upgrades
- Apple handles downloads for you
- Apple handles refunds, etc.
- High level of trust
Sell through Kagi
Cons
- No discoverability (it's up to you to have a compelling web presence)
Pros
- Kagi provides a licensing system which you're free to use or not
- Some level of trust (Kagi used to be a big name, not so much now)
- Pay Kagi ~5%
Sell via random merchant service
Cons
- No discoverability (it's up to you to have a compelling web presence)
- No level of trust (e.g. for a lot of European merchants US credit card companies will treat the transaction as suspicious and block it by default)
Pros
- Pay ??? ~3%
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I find it strange that people get upset about Cheetah3D leaving the MAS. It was simple to update etc. , that is true. But apps bought directly can also be updated very easily -> help -> check for the latest version (or something like that).
I really don't care if it's on the MAS or not. As long as it's has more and better features. As a blender user (I started with cheetah 3D) I really look forward to v7 and maybe Cheetah will be my nr. 1 app again.
Don't let us wait too long Martin
I really don't care if it's on the MAS or not. As long as it's has more and better features. As a blender user (I started with cheetah 3D) I really look forward to v7 and maybe Cheetah will be my nr. 1 app again.
Don't let us wait too long Martin
Martin
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Hi,
sorry for the late reply. It probably was a bad idea to start that thread shortly before I went on holidays.:redface:
First some informations about the Upgrade. Everybody who bought Cheetah3D before April 1st 2015 will be entitled to the reduced price Cheetah3D 7 Upgrade for $59. No matter if you bought Cheetah3D via my webpage or via the Mac App Store. I treat all my customers equally. So don't worry about that.:smile:
I was also asked a few times about the system requirements for Cheetah3D 7. I worked hard to keep the system requirements as low as possible. Therefore Cheetah3D 7 will just require a
There is only one small exception. If you also want to use the sharing services (uploading images to Facebook, Twitter and Co.) you will need at east OS X 10.8.
Kind regards
Martin
sorry for the late reply. It probably was a bad idea to start that thread shortly before I went on holidays.:redface:
First some informations about the Upgrade. Everybody who bought Cheetah3D before April 1st 2015 will be entitled to the reduced price Cheetah3D 7 Upgrade for $59. No matter if you bought Cheetah3D via my webpage or via the Mac App Store. I treat all my customers equally. So don't worry about that.:smile:
I was also asked a few times about the system requirements for Cheetah3D 7. I worked hard to keep the system requirements as low as possible. Therefore Cheetah3D 7 will just require a
- 64-Bit Intel CPU
- OS X 10.6.8
There is only one small exception. If you also want to use the sharing services (uploading images to Facebook, Twitter and Co.) you will need at east OS X 10.8.
Kind regards
Martin
Martin
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Yes, that's a very real problem. It's very risky for a developer to release a buggy version since one buggy (crashing) update can ruin your customer-rating forever. That's why I dramatically decreased the number of Updates. That's why I had even small Updates many weeks in closed beta tests.
Sandboxing is a true nightmare. Cheetah3D 6 wasn't sandboxed but sandboxing would have become mandatory for Cheetah3D 7. The OS X sandbox has some serious technical limitations when it comes to project file formats (file formats which link to external resources, like a .jas file which links to a external texture). I even talked with an Apple engineer about that problem and he was honest enough to recommended me to distribute Cheetah3D outside the MAS using Gatekeeper.
It would have been possible to cripple Cheetah3D in a way that it would fit into the sandbox and sell an unlimited/Pro version via my webpage page. But I would have had serious problems to sell a app in the MAS I personally didn't want to use anymore.
So I really respect those developers who leave the MAS just that they don't have to cripple their app. And during the last months quite some AAA applications left.
Absolutely true. I wasted lots of time with maintaining the two versions, the review processes, the massively extended testing period for even tiny bug fix updates, etc.
That's one of the reasons why I wouldn't consider the last four years as especially productive.
The MAS generates pretty close to no exposure if you are not featured on the main page of the MAS regularly.
There are almost 20000 apps in the MAS. 99.9% have same same dull light grey sales page with an icon and five screenshots. Nothing to catch attraction. And the search field of the MAS is pretty useless too.
If Apple promotes your application regularly on the MAS mainpage then the 30% are a no-brainer. If Apple just hides your application in the darkest corner of the MAS it's ridiculously expensive. Because then the MAS is not much more than a payment processor and you still have to run marketing campaigns outside the MAS with your remaining 70%.
Bye
Martin
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v6 & v7 on same machine?
I'm fine with the MAS decision.
@Martin: Will v6 and v7 live happily together on the same Mac - at least initially?
I'm fine with the MAS decision.
@Martin: Will v6 and v7 live happily together on the same Mac - at least initially?
Your reasons sound pretty solid to me, in summary:
t
The last point I find a tiny bit puzzling. I imagine Apple's position was that the files should be self-contained bundles. This would obviously be wasteful if you ended up with lots of copies of the same underlying resources (e.g. textures) rather than references to one, but that points to a flaw in the Mac OS file system (which lacks transparent de-duplication* except in Time Machine backups). If Apple were to (finally) address this then it wouldn't matter and the additional robustness (since you are storing files and not links to files, you wouldn't lose materials when you sent files hither and yon) would be a win.
* Dropbox does deduplication, but you don't get the benefit (they do). If you have five identical files in your Dropbox folder, then Dropbox only stores one, but counts all five against your space allotment.
(I've no idea how sandboxing is hurting C3D — you're not allowed to store an alias to an external resource?)
t
- he approval process sucks for you (as a solo developer particularly, e.g. no QA staff)
- the 30% isn't buying you anything since Apple won't promote you, and you're already trusted and handling your own sales anyway
- the sandboxing is a PITA
The last point I find a tiny bit puzzling. I imagine Apple's position was that the files should be self-contained bundles. This would obviously be wasteful if you ended up with lots of copies of the same underlying resources (e.g. textures) rather than references to one, but that points to a flaw in the Mac OS file system (which lacks transparent de-duplication* except in Time Machine backups). If Apple were to (finally) address this then it wouldn't matter and the additional robustness (since you are storing files and not links to files, you wouldn't lose materials when you sent files hither and yon) would be a win.
* Dropbox does deduplication, but you don't get the benefit (they do). If you have five identical files in your Dropbox folder, then Dropbox only stores one, but counts all five against your space allotment.
(I've no idea how sandboxing is hurting C3D — you're not allowed to store an alias to an external resource?)
Martin
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That has nothing todo with aliases or duplicates. The OS X sandbox just allows you to load the file/folder you've selected in the Open panel (powerbox). Exactly that single file/folder and nothing more.
But if you deal with project file formats you usually just select the root file ( example a .jas, .fbx or .html file). You don't select the resources (textures). Therefore you can just load the selected file but not the resources.
If you have a bundle file format that is no problem. But no 3D file format is a bundle file format. And I definitely can't change the specs of the .3ds or .fbx file format.
There exist various ugly methods to bypass that limitation. But they all have one thing in common, they are very uncomfortable /confusing for the user.
As I said it's possible to cripple Cheetah3D to a degree where it fits into the sandbox. But Apple gave me more than enough other reasons to leave the MAS so the sandbox really was not the final drop out reason.
I'm using the OS Xs Gatekeeper technology for distributing Cheetah3D on the web. So users are least know that the software comes form a trustworthy source.
Bye
Martin
Ah — that makes perfect sense. But you referred before to .jas files specifically (whose format is under your control) versus export file formats. It would be a serious pain to, for example, have to explicitly open each referenced file individually.
Given the issue involved (a file which refers to other files) Apple is essentially preventing all kinds of tools (e.g. most software development tools) from being distributed in the App store, which is annoying. (It probably explains why BBEdit has left the MAS as well, since the way it handles project directories would also violate the sandbox restrictions you cite.)
It seems to me that Apple should provide some level of support for this kind of behavior (e.g. when you launch the app it says "XXXX is requesting access to other documents in the same folder as documents it already has access to" or "XXXX has requested access to the following 12 files, is this OK? (Don't ask again [ ]".
That said, I guess Apple is perfectly happy for less technical applications to be in the MAS and more technical applications not to be.
I believe I'm speaking for not only myself but also the Cheetah users when I say:
Thank you Martin for your consistent reliable display of integrity in developing and marketing Cheetah 3D.
You always look out for the best for all.
I am excitedly anticipating Cheetah 3D 7's release.
As I read the forum posts I see many users expressing that they are continually impressed with it's
user friendly format and multitude of functions. I entirely agree with them.
My Best
Jeanny
Thank you Martin for your consistent reliable display of integrity in developing and marketing Cheetah 3D.
You always look out for the best for all.
I am excitedly anticipating Cheetah 3D 7's release.
As I read the forum posts I see many users expressing that they are continually impressed with it's
user friendly format and multitude of functions. I entirely agree with them.
My Best
Jeanny
I have been following these forums for a few years now and have learned so much valuable information from everyone. Martin, I could only imagine how busy you are, so we all appreciate you taking the time to answer questions and also being able to tell us about some of the upcoming Cheetah 3D 7 features! I have done several projects in Cheetah 3D for myself and clients and really enjoy using it; It just comes natural to me.
I am very excited for Cheetah 7's release and can't wait to get my hands on it and to start creating!
Good luck to the upcoming release!
Freddie3D
I am very excited for Cheetah 7's release and can't wait to get my hands on it and to start creating!
Good luck to the upcoming release!
Freddie3D
Wow, still supporting Snow Leopard - great news.
I rarely use the MAS, coming from a generation before the MAS existed. I can't really see what the fuss is about to be honest.
I am happy for Martin to sell this fantastic program any way he chooses. I will always have a copy.
Keep up the good work Martin.
Swizl
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Yeah I'm surprised and happy that SL is being supported too! I'm still on SL at work since we use FreeHand MX still. We've mostly moved over to Illustrator, but we have 15+ years of FreeHand files we have to maintain too.
Martin
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Security-scoped bookmarks would have helped for newly created .jas files. For extisting .jas files I would have still been a big pain.
BBEdit, Coda, AutoCAD LT, Cheetah3D, ... The list of apps which more or less silently disappear is getting longer and longer.
Very true. Apple spent more than 4 years to explain me that Cheetah3D is just a "niche app" and that Cheetah3D therefore it not good enough to be displayed more prominently in the MAS. Unluckily I never believed that and I was even crazy enough to disagree. Something you should definitely never do!!!
So you can be for sure that my "friends" at Apple won't miss me for a single microsecond.:redface:
Bye
Martin
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Martin
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It's something I already considered but for the first I will enjoy my independence.
Bye
Martin
Shame to hear these reasons. As a consumer, I can completely appreciate the protections for consumers even if they inconvenience developers. My hope is that your voice will be added to those calling for some degree of reasonable reform in the Mac App Store. When it's added back to the Mac App Store, I'll purchase it at full price. Until then, I'm satisfied with Cheetah3D 6 that I have that will apparently fall into disrepair now that you've removed your presence from the MAS.
One can dream - and waste its time. :redface:
Mmmh - you´re registered to the forum since 2009. Cheetah3d arrived in the MAS on 6th Jan. 2011. Are you saying you waited with buying a license till then?
Cheers
Frank