Cheetah 3D User Interface - A question...

Nope, color isn't as important as spatial layout

What?! :shock: The use of colour is just as important as spatial layout! Where are you getting all this nonsense from?

Muscle memory? :? I don't think about where my mouse is, because I already know -spatial reasoning, as long as it hasn't been moved, but if it has, if the mouse is coloured, then it is easier to spot by the brain (unless you have a colour blindness?). The eye is an extension of your brain, and it is is your brain that tells you how to coordinate you muscles to point your mouse at, and if there is colour feedback, this makes the process easier to understand, as well of having a consistent and well laid out interface.

Do you not think that mind mapping techniques are heavily influenced by colouring? Tony Buzan positively encourages mind maps to be as colourful as possible! What about other types map? The London Underground map is classic example of the use of spatial reasoning (through the branch of mathematics known as topology) and the use of colour coding. Even javascript now uses colour coding to make certain parts easier to follow.

I do however agree with you that some people (like yourself?) find the use of colour confusing, but then not everyone finds that black on white is easier to read either.

I guess we'll just have to beg to differ.
 

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Oh, yeah color! Gimme colors!

Make Cheetah3D look like Stone Studio's Videator with its superior and colorful user interface design (GUI):
img1.jpg


No, seriously I'm with podperson. Keep it simple. Keep it monochromatic.
No matter what professional high-end 3D bundle you look at, they all have quite monochromatic GUIs. modo, C4D, Maya, Lightwave, etc.
Colors are just distracting. If use a color in your GUI, then only one at most.

Like "orange" in modo's great interface:
1-modo-interface-thumb.gif


Even Zbrush uses a total of one color in its ugly and crappy interface:
introductiontozbrush3savf2.jpg
 
The use of colour is just as important as spatial layout! Where are you getting all this nonsense from?

Dumbest. Example. Ever.

Print that map in greyscale* -- it's still useful.

Print it without the spatial information but with colors. Now good luck using it. OK if we color code all the towns on the same lines, it's still MARGINALLY useful.

But we need to order them to see which stops appear in which order (don't know about you, but to get off at a given stop on a crowded train, I usually check to see which stops I'll be passing BEFORE I get to it). So we need simple spatial relationships (order) JUST to navigate a single line.

But, I still need to see how to get from A which is on one line to B which is on another line. Hmm, maybe using spatial relationships to show where different stops and lines are might be helpful.

(The great innovation in the original design of the London tube map wasn't color -- older maps used color and were incomprehensible; it was simplifying the map to show only the minimum amount of spatial information necessary to explain the relationships of stops to one another.)

I'm not saying color isn't helpful on the London Underground map, but it's a small number of colors and they represent the only things the user cares about besides actual stops. If I'm trying to follow the red line, then I just need to remember "red". I don't need to remember 53 icons, 44 keyboard shortcuts, and 25 arbitrarily assigned colors -- which is what you'd be doing in Cheetah 3D or most computer programs.

Again, syntax coloring (JavaScript in your example) is completely different. If you use red = keywords, blue = symbols, orange = string literals, etc. then, first of all, each instance of a red keyword reinforces the relationship. Second, you're usually dealing with a fairly small number of mappings and/or you can also relate the mappings to each other logically (e.g. all literals can be shades of orange). Third, you're not editing something intrinsically colored so the colors of what you're working on don't clash with the colors of the UI. Fourth, you're generally looking at very bright text on a black background or very bold text on a white background -- not captions on colored backgrounds, which suck. Since we're talking about a GRAPHICS program here what you're proposing is analogous to sticking lots of arbitrary TEXT labels next to every bit of text (e.g. a little "vcg" next to any variable). Note that text is a lot easier to make non-arbitrary which is why captions are more useful than colors, but even having a little floating text saying "variable" next to each variable would be highly annoying and not useful.

* The ONLY purpose color is serving is to help tell lines apart. (And this isn't analogous to the problem in Cheetah 3D which is to find specific items in the user interface. If the label "Specular" were on the left side of the screen and the specular field appeared on the other side of the screen with no caption, OK then color might be helpful there. If this map were interactive, I'd use ONE color to highlight the line I was interested in, and I'd show the name of the line next to the line.)

BTW: guess what I do for a living? (At least right at this moment.) Take a wild guess.
 

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ttrw:

Dumbest. Example. Ever.

Right! all-out WAR!!!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Yeah- it was a pretty silly example (but you get my point?)- because I was trying to resize the colourful one, but then it pixalated so much it was useless :shock: But it was a poor example, because I can't be bothered to argue with someone who doesn't know any better :p ;) :lol:

Podperson said:
BTW: guess what I do for a living? (At least right at this moment.) Take a wild guess.
You design maps for a living? (FWIW, My father is a Professor (Reader) of Geometric Topology at Sussex University, so I do know a bit about spatial reasoning with the London Underground Map). I'm also supposed to have dyslexia- although only mild ;)

No I don't want a war, I just want other people to respect that others have differences of opinion. And I'm most certainly not talking M$ Vista!!

As for Modo and the likes, YES DaVinci, I can't agree more, their interfaces are absolutely and utterly vile, and what's worse, every time you open each of them up, all the controls are somewhere else on the screen. At least C3D follows the Cocoa GUI examples set by Apple 8)

Talking of which, so does Rhino (ie Cocoa interface).

If only C3D was more architectural visualisation friendly (needs better control of unit information and snapping imo) :( :cry:
 
PS, without colour, although readable, that map above, in black and white, is harder, much harder for me to remember (I get lost a lot on maps- for me they got better when the designers added colour).

Tom :)
 
PS, without colour, although readable, that map above, in black and white, is harder, much harder for me to remember (I get lost a lot on maps- for me they got better when the designers added colour).

Of course. But without spatial relationships it ceases to be a map altogether. It's just a bunch of words.
 
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* The ONLY purpose color is serving is to help tell lines apart

Yes! Exactly. But because I visualise in 3D really well, I can remember spacial relationships with those coloured lines mapped to the real thing. I can even 'see' London from above, even though I've never flown over it.

If the label "Specular" were on the left side of the screen and the specular field appeared on the other side of the screen with no caption, OK then color might be helpful there. If this map were interactive, I'd use ONE color to highlight the line I was interested in, and I'd show the name of the line next to the line.)

Come again? "Colour may be useful there" ?? :shock: :lol: So you do agree?? :D

It's a shame that you are in Aussie, I think that this is a call for lots of beer!! :D :D :D
 
Come again? "Colour may be useful there" ?? :shock: :lol: So you do agree?? :D

I'm in Tuscaloosa, AL actually. But again, please read what I've said -- it helps to argue against what someone actually says...

Of course color is useful. I even -- way back -- give an example of how color is already being used in the C3D interface to good effect (red = x, green = y, and blue = z).

My problem is with visual noise, arbitrary mappings, and overloading the user's short term memory with piles of crap.

You keep saying color and spatial relationships are EQUALLY important. They aren't. A map isn't even a map without spatial relationships. A sentence makes no sense with the words jumbled. Color is nice, but if you became profoundly color blind tomorrow you could still drive a car (because the green light on traffic lights is also CONSISTENTLY on the BOTTOM).

Spatial relationships are incredibly more important than color, and text is incredibly more precise for connoting meaning than color.
 
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Oh and let me add that there's a big difference between using color in an interface when the interface is the content, than when the interface is "off to the side" of the content.

The london underground map doesn't need to coexist with some image you're editing.

So, in summary:

1) The london underground map is still usable without color, but would be completely useless without spatial relationships -- spatial relationships are thus far more important (in a map) than colors. But this should be obvious.

2) The london underground map isn't a user interface, it's a standalone object. It doesn't need to avoid confusing its use of color with other uses of color in associated objects.

3) The london underground map doesn't require users to retain a large number of mappings (colors-to-meanings) in their heads. Generally, a user will only need to remember one or two colors at a time (I'm on the red line, my destination is on the orange line ... so which stop do I change trains on?) Indeed, the user may not even care what the colors mean, and simply use them to tell lines apart.
 
My problem is with visual noise, arbitrary mappings, and overloading the user's short term memory with piles of crap.

Yes, I agree with you 100%. I also agree to an extent that text is more useful than just colour alone. But where does a 'pile of crap' start or end? I feel that your reasoning has also been rather 'black or white', and I think that is counter-productive too.

But, I don't think that what magneticblue was saying was particularly outrageous either. My wife has just told me (she works as an HR officer) that one of the company's employees has requested for some software to be colour-coded, and as a result, she has become more efficient in doing her job. I know people who wouldn't want that as well. It's "swings and roundabouts" as they say ;)

I'm sorry about misplacing you in Australia, I don't know where I got that from :?

We can still drink beer though? :)
 
Oh I'm an Aussie -- I just live in the US.

I feel that your reasoning has also been rather 'black or white', and I think that is counter-productive too.

Aside from dismissing the idea of assigning arbitrary colors to headings in Cheetah 3d's various panels on the grounds of (a) aesthetics (it would make the UI ugly), (b) cognitive load on the user (it's easier to remember that "specular" means "specular" than "mauve" means "specular"), and (c) prioritization (there are far more useful things for Martin to do), all I've done is attempt to disprove what I perceive as blatantly untrue statements (such as "The use of colour is just as important as spatial layout!").

Logic tends to be black and white. A statement like that is either true or false. I think I've comprehensively demonstrated that it's false.
 
I need two shades of grey at least.

For me it's about perceiving quickly the area I work on.

And seriously I need it.

Everyone can easily switch on or off this feature.
 

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Seriously... there are FAR more important things that Martin is working on and (I'm sure) has lined-up in the que to work on other than making the User Interface customizable to THAT extent.

That has got to be one of the least-helpful features one could add to an application (not trying to offend you).

Are there any other applications that you can think of that allow you to customize modal UI box titles to the extent of coloring each one differently...?

I can't think of any (not saying that none exist).

I could understand maybe requesting that the header-bars provide more CONTRAST so that you can glance at them quicker, but I have yet to run into an issue finding what I need to. I'm not right. You're not wrong.

I'm just saying that if I had to prioritize Martin's tasks - something like that would not even make the list. Sorry.
 
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